A place to post an opinion you accept may be flawed, in an effort to understand other perspectives on the issue. It is still a regressive policy. Americorps and Teach for America are fantastic opportunities to have a chance to pay into the community as a teacher in underprivileged schools and also graduate with little or no student debt (or to have that debt forgiven). We shouldn't be giving out massive amounts of money to the people in society who earn more than the poorest. ---Well, maybe not everyone should be in higher education!? We need to rebuild the educational foundation. To be sure, there are a rising number of student loan borrowers who owe more than $100,000 and would still be left with large balances even after the $50,000 in forgiveness… To say that only the wealthy will benefit from $50K isn't necessarily true. He graduated college and got a job there. In high school, I was required to take at least three different tests that placed me in careers based on how I answered some questions (or allowed me to choose a career), then gave me the expected median salary for someone with that career. It seems almost every candidate has an opinion on the best way to repay student loan … There are a couple things going on here that I think should be addressed: 1) Pretty much everyone who advocates for student debt forgiveness also advocates for free public college. When you are about to enter college, everyone around you is pushing college on you. This is for a few reasons. All current student loan cancellation plans that are being seriously floated are only proposing to cancel a certain amount, about $50k, so it's not like a bunch of doctors and lawyers are going to have their full debt burden removed. For deeply indebted borrowers, the impact of this action might be minimal, but for others, it could potentially free them from all their federal student debt. ---Many of them are not. But student loan forgiveness could also be a restorative justice issue in that it would help right past wrongs. This wouldn't increase the wealth gap in the way people talk about that. Now, you are correct that people with lesser education can beat the odds and become successful as well. The for profit colleges make money off of the fees, bank makes money off of the loan and the corporates get a skilled slave bound by the payment of student loan. This policy is just supposed to specifically help people that are in a rough spot, usually by no fault of their own. This really reads as not a challenge to my views in any way, and as a violation of this subs rules. Even if this only caused people with middle incomes to have more spending money (it would, of course, help people across the board), that would still benefit any businesses and any employees of businesses that gain increased revenue. Gaps in wealth - people who are overburdened with student loans can’t invest, can’t buy a house, maybe can’t get credit at all, Highly unequal - that’s the whole damn system top to bottom, Yeah I haven’t really been super convinced by any of the other points. Veteran Student Loan Forgiveness. Depending upon a borrower’s debt and income … Loan forgiveness rewards Fiscal irresponsibility. The full amount of your payments will be applied to principal once all the interest that accrued prior to March 13, 2020 is paid. Free public college is a more difficult thing to do, not financially, but logistically. Others provide loan forgiveness in return for practicing medicine or conducting medical research for a state-sanctioned agency. The citizenry of the United States shouldn't have to deal with the burden of bad decisions made by politicians. Student Loan Forgiveness Through Income Driven Repayment . Poor decision making, regardless of age (assuming the person is an adult) or the outside pressures felt, should not become a burden upon others. Everything comes from somewhere, and in the case of the government, it comes from the people ultimately. It seems really insane to just grow certain people's net worth by so much when other (poorer) people won't receive anything near that level of benefit from the government in a given year. You're right like if there's any debt that's different or special it's probably either student loan or medical debt. Actions have consequences (in this case debt), and no one should be subject to consequences for actions of another. Many students decided to take a frugal path through higher education, which should be encouraged. Fortunately there are other, less physically demanding and dangerous options. The president could forgive most student debt simply by signing a document. Then, one could go to their state school and pay their way with a minimum wage job. That is impossible now for even the most frugal students. So you might as well suck it up and do what's best for yourself by absolving student loan debt and creating a larger tax base for uncle sam to draw from. As the debate over student loan forgiveness continues, Student Loan Hero took a look at how borrowers would be impacted by the proposed $10,000 in forgiveness. In some areas, it barely covers cost of living. But seeking loan forgiveness or loan discharge can be a rigorous process. Perhaps they decided to go to a less expensive school and took on a part time job. Lastly I think it's just way way to unequal to give certain people up to $50,000 and not give other people, especially poorer people, a similar amount. There are a multitude of affordable universities that do not require a significant amount of debt to attend. There are a number of other requirements and specifications necessary to qualify for public student loan forgiveness. CMV: student loan forgiveness is unfair on the basis of being regressive, rendering good choices irrelevant, perpetuating gaps in wealth, and being highly unequal in it's benefit I am generally left leaning in my politics but think that student loan forgiveness is a fundamentally unfair proposal on the basis of the 4 points laid out below. A place to post an opinion you accept may be flawed, in an effort to understand other perspectives on the issue. Join the military, or become a teacher through a variety of government funded programs. This is affordable for most people who work a full time job, and if not, results is approximately 40,000 in loans on total for a four year degree. Students weren't looking at how much they were taking out every year because it was automatic... and automatically the max amount. CMV: Student Loan Forgiveness is a bad policy. forgiving $50k of debt would mostly help those at the lower end of the spectrum. Student loans are difficult to repay in a sluggish economy, and many recent graduates are struggling under considerable debt. Student loan debt is a big problem in Canada, and it’s not going away any time soon. I don't think that the government, and by proxy the taxpayers, should extend blanket repayment of the debt of students. You need to think about the increase in student population, you need to figure out how to fund them and how much to give them, and plenty of other things. If you are a doctor, you could qualify for up to $40,000 in loan forgiveness over five years ($8,000 per year). Statistically speaking, going to college is a prudent and responsible choice regardless of degree and even if you have to take out loans to do it. It’s unfortunate that the ‘cancel current debt’ slogan implies this, because the reality is way more pragmatic and addresses most of your concerns. If you compare all college students in the 00s and '10s to their parents who went to college in the 60s and 70s, it's already unfair. But after almost five years of … That makes those future loan payments seem trivial. For example, only Direct Loans are eligible for PSLF. A second current policy in place that allows for federal student debt forgiveness is the Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) program.. Most actual proposals have income cut-offs and factor in amount of debt paid so far, and cancel a percentage on a need based scale. Government funded education. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Student loan forgiveness is a popular term on the presidential campaign trail. The middle class kids (like me) were squeezed: not poor enough for grants, not rich enough to pay. Unions Push Student Loan Cancellation For Public Service Jobs. Biden’s plan is to expand income-based repayment options for just about everyone, and freeze payments for people making $25k/yr. Student loan forgiveness is a release from having to repay the borrowed sum, in full or in part. Original balance: $69,591. If we're going to be "unfair" to someone, I would rather be "unfair" to the people who have paid off their degree than the ones who are floundering in debt they should never have had to take on in the first place. I'd argue that sub 1% of people could do both successfully. Setting aside the inherent weakness of this argument, it's objectively cheap to pay off all student loan debt (100 billion a year for 10 years doesn't require a new budget either, it can just be sliced off of existing budgets I.E. You object, say that it's suicide. We need philosophers and artists just as much as we need physicists and physicians. Like if you're going to say that everyone can go to college for free I think you've got a great solution to an enormous problem. Plus, the more educated the society, the better. Your missing another $15,000-$20,000 a year in expenses. In such model the student gets the benefit of the affordable higher education and the society gets the benefit of their skills via the government service. Current balance: $74,653. And the statistics are pretty clear. It literally devalues the struggles that actual slaves went through. He did not get a business or finance related degree. 75% of people with student loans only went to a two- or four-year school. Over the last year, members of Congress have proposed a plethora of student loan forgiveness plans. Why do they offer two kinds of forgiveness? You as a person might not need college to be successful, but all of us need colleges in order to be successful together. It renders good choices + financial prudence irrelevant. How can the poor pay for the education? The teens making these choices point is a pretty good one however it doesn't really change any of these points enormously. Student loan forgiveness is an attractive economic stimulus policy because its cost is actually offset by the administrative costs to service the loans as they currently exist. If you would like to appeal, you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list, review our appeals process here, then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+gainer-bull&message=gainer-bull+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+his/her+post within one week of this notice being posted. As mentioned before, this ITT Tech Student Loan Forgiveness program requires 120 qualifying payments. This is a reasonable amount to pay for college (about the same as a new Hyundai), and easily repaid in a few years even with interest. It's bad for Joe Biden, Democrats and America. I see you have tuition, what about the rest of the costs? 3) Utilize student loan forgiveness programs – The two most common avenues to student loan forgiveness are Public Service Loan Forgiveness and forgiveness after 20-25 years of income-driven payments. First off, you should clarify which policy proposal you are specifically looking at, because a lot of your contentions don’t apply to Biden’s proposal, for example. Never mind the costs associated with being a tradesmen, like needing to own specific types of expensive vehicles, having tools of the trade, and all other forms of repeat expenditures to simply do their job. To be honest, I think we are already seeing these effects, and as I don't think it is good policy. Should education be limited to the upper economic class? That welder suffers - he doesn't benefit he suffers - when there's a weak middle class and the economy is stagnant. Going to college is not required in order to be successful, and is a personal choice. It still encourages a moral hazard. 6 rounds loaded, 1 unloaded, and I tell you to spin it, put it to your head, and fire. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. Make sure you read below. After a few years he became the manager of a racing auto shop, and now makes greater than six figures (with no formal education). ---Yes, you have to find a job that pays well. Yes, the entire higher educational system needs to be overhauled, especially the predatory practices of students lending. That is a socialist talking point that is so far from appropriate. It's bad for Joe Biden, Democrats and America. Working part time is an option, but in several places of the world it's not nearly enough. Also, the current system is much more unfair, because the cost of education has exploded while wages have stagnated, so it takes a lot more working and grinding to pay off a degree than it did 20 years ago. This drives the qualifications for entry level positions up, while not necessarily driving the wages higher. Ask someone who made $33 an hour doing construction how their knees, back or arms function at the end of their career. If you'd like, I'll find the exact stats on this, but people whose parents make more money are much more likely to go to college and people whose parents make more money are likely to make more money themselves. Enter with a mindset for conversation, not debate. Essentially, you are saying that the jobs which are (on average) the best paying, should be limited to those people who're descended of the upper and upper-middle classes, while the lower and lower-middle class should contend themselves with lower paying jobs. All of it. The choice is clear: Democrats must make student loan forgiveness a priority ahead of minimum wage while they hold legislative capital. It covers $5000 per year served. or less. Every kid of my generation was told that going to college WAS the good choice. Again you are appealing to less than 1% of the population in regards to millionaires and billionaires. But forgiving people's mortgages and car payments is not the role of government. For Black families who don't have similar resources, student loan forgiveness could mean more opportunities, including putting money elsewhere … Both would be bad. Returning it was not always easy, and not many 21 year old have the self-discipline to return immediate money for long-term relief. Fortunately there are other, less physically demanding and dangerous options. Sure, you don't need college to work on a race team or weld, but we don't need that many race teams and welders. Which Payments Qualify? California is an amazing place to live, not just because it has tons of sights to see, beaches to go to, and Disneyland to visit, but also because the state offers several powerful Federal Student Loan Forgiveness Programs to residents buried in college loan debt.. These are good points but don't engage with the core substance of my points which is that borrowers are still likely to out earn non graduates. In principle the main gripe I have is that the policy is regressive and forgiving people who drop out is a fine proposal. We are in no shortage of people graduating with degrees. Those from lower socio-economic levels at my school received more in grant and scholarships, and didn't need to take out loans. Only those with upper class parents did not. So no, we do not need "just as many", and I am willing to lose out on some of that talent in order to have a stable society. There have been many millionaires and billionaires who have created vast amounts of wealth without attending a four year university. Those with massive debt almost exclusively have graduate degrees and the top quintile of income earners has $3 of student loan debt for every $1 held by the bottom quintile. It's not the focus of this post though. Enter with a mindset for conversation, not debate. Going to college is not required in order to be successful, and is a personal choice. Bottom line is that I feel no need to pay for (with my tax dollars) the unnecessary, frivolous, and often ill advised educations of people who often times pursue degrees that have low (if any) prospects in the job force, whilst there are viable affordable (and even free options) that exist. Some people will probably work for years and not see their net worths change by half that much. Canada Student Loan Forgiveness for Doctors and Nurses. Press J to jump to the feed. Not forgiving student loans also does all those things, too, with the added bonus of fucking over an entire generation and leaving them unable to participate in the economy. Press J to jump to the feed. I agree. You can join the military, and earn the GI bill (as well as a skillset in many cases), which pays the overwhelming majority of all college fees as well as a stipend for room and board. Like I mentioned before the majority of student loan debt is held by current or future high income earners. They didn't finish college without taking on massive amounts of private loan debt (which wouldn't be forgiven anyway), but still left after two years with $15,000 or $20,000 of debt. Forgiving student loans solves very little long term and is unfair for the reasons I laid out. Student Loan Forgiveness. It shouldn't be. I also do not disagree that the exception is not the rule. We're talking private & federal loans, IDR and forgiveness programs (PSLF, REPAYE, PAYE, IBR, ICR), refinancing, and how to pay off quickly. Indian Health Services Loan Repayment Program. The minimum payment for people making over $25k/yr. The typical American takes 21 years to repay their student loan debt.But many people are eligible for student loan forgiveness programs and could get rid of this debt much sooner. Student loan forgiveness is by any definition a regressive policy, giving monetary benefit to people who either currently outearn or in the future are far more likely to outearn those who didn't go to college. If you are not able, or willing to work to support yourself, and not able to get scholarships, and not able to pay upfront, either don't go to university, or take out the loans to do so. Which means you're the loser here, not the students. No it wouldn't. You can not dig up an anecdote to dismiss something, you have to look at it statistically. The government (a slow, wasteful, and ineffective entity) should not be the source of goods, services, or welfare for the people. Why is it fair for you to get $50,000 for your debts when millions of people get nothing? 1. If you teach full-time for five complete and consecutive academic years in certain elementary or secondary schools or educational service agencies that serve low-income families, and meet other qualifications, you may be eligible for forgiveness of up to a combined total of $17,500 on eligible federal student loans. Do we as a society want to incentivize people going to colleges they can afford, or do we want to incentivize people going to the best college they can get into? Furthermore trade jobs are manual labor. This is almost my entire point. I honestly don’t see how this can be viewed as good policy. The idea of forgiving student debt removes responsibility from the students themselves, and is potentially teaching them that their actions don't have consequences. Why should that be a factor and why should I pay for your car, gas, clothes, and food? I had a friend in college who had a very rich father who worked at a big investing firm you've absolutely heard of. So, that brings us to another point. Senator Sanders proposes eliminating all $1.6 trillion in student loan debt, regardless of student need. User account menu. How to pay off the loan? Rent, car, insurance, gas, books, clothes food, etc? Close. You're gonna live a real hard life if you don't reconcile that your tax dollars go to tons of shit that you don't want it to. ---Obviously not, but asking tax payers to balance out the difference between the opportunities a billionaire's son has and a blue collar worker's son has is ridiculous. Arguments that, "That is what Sweden does, and they are successful" are unlikely to persuade me due to the vast differences in both size, and distributions of the population. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards. Teacher Loan Forgiveness. Having said that, I acknowledge that it may help, and that it can be a good predictor, however there are plenty of uneducated "rich" people, and plenty of highly educated "poor" people. I'm not really sure what the point there is. I make much less than the median wage for my profession simply because I'm young. Biden's Plan to Cancel $10K of Student Debt More Popular Than $50K: Poll; Progressives Still Pushing for Student Loan Relief, Despite Poll Results; Democrats Must Go All-in on Student Loan Forgiveness ---Government funded education already exists. Under the DeVos standard, student loan cancellation was not automatic, borrowers had to … A NONPARTISAN COMMUNITY TO CANCEL ALL STUDENT DEBT. I say 'pretty much' because I'm sure there's some politician out there who wants student debt forgiveness but does not want free public college, but I've never heard of them. The argument is that we shouldn't be forcing people to work and grind and stress over this stuff. Student loan forgiveness: What $10,000 in cancellation would look like by U.S. state ' Bilking taxpayers': Warren demands $22 million owed by student loan servicer Navient I never said it was, I just provided examples in which EXTREME success could come about with almost no education, in the same way that reasonable success can come about with some education. DeVos says her student loan forgiveness rules would save taxpayers $11 billion over 10 years. Well, not everyone qualifies for PSLF. Finally, you might be surprised to learn that the government originally thought they would earn a profit from the subsidized loan scheme, but they are actually operating at a loss. I agree that 18 year olds making big decisions is a point in favor of forgiveness but it still doesn't really change the other empirical points I've made. If you would like to appeal, you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list, review our appeals process here, then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule+1+Appeal+duksinarw&message=duksinarw+would+like+to+appeal+the+removal+of+his/her+post within one week of this notice being posted. Their future earning potential will not be able to counterbalance the college debt without either a partner or multiple jobs. People 18-40 aren't starting businesses. I clarified I’m referring to the proposal I believe put forth by Schumer but backed by lots of progressives to forgive $50k per borrower. I worked in student finance, specifically student loans, for four years. I'd love to do it. Forgiving $50k in debt is not the same as giving someone $50k, first of all. The NDP on Saturday said it will push the Liberal government to cancel up to $20,000 in federal student loan debt per Canadian, as part of its plan … At what point is the value of holding people to their choices so important everyone in the economy should suffer for it? /u/Proper-Thought-2020 (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post. CMV: $50k in student loan forgiveness isn't a bad idea. All other debt, be it medical or consumer, can be discharged via bankruptcy. 1: What about the high school kids who are going to be going to college in the next four years? Delta(s) from OP. He can now make more than 30 dollars an hour as an entry level welder. Consider a different perspective, one less about the individual and more about the economy as a whole. Besides the so called low prospect jobs, are they unnecessary? We use cookies on our websites for a number of purposes, including analytics and performance, functionality and advertising. ---Yes, this is the cost of doing business. I am generally left leaning in my politics but think that student loan forgiveness is a fundamentally unfair proposal on the basis of the 4 points laid out below. Provided they don't have patron, they have to take out a loan. I'm 100% on board with this. To elaborate, I am very much in support of some type of relief for indebted students. At one time, they could, under a very, very specific and strict set of circumstances. Five years into on-time loan payments, Arthur learned of another loan forgiveness program that offered $5,000 in student loan forgiveness for educators who teach at Title I schools. I agree that costs are definitely more expensive; that doesn't change the fact that even with costs where they are there are still people that work their way through school and grind to repay their debts. I mean you could make an argument either way for that I am sure. No one can promise immediate and total student loan forgiveness or cancellation. Of course not. The prevailing social push is towards college. I think there is too much emphasis on 4 year education, and i think that the commercialization of higher education is a leading cause of this. The idea of forgiving all, or even a majority of student loans is personally vexing. I don't think it's the role of society to pay for everyone elses choices. Couple all of this that student loans taken out after the late '90s can never be discharged via bankruptcy. As an aside it also seems like a real moral hazard to incent people to behave in ways that aren't consistent with frugal choice making and prudence and student loan repayment would definitely send a message that government will make up for debts and therefore you can accumulate them safely. Regressive?Yep - it’s pretty much always the poorest students who get bad terms on loans and lack the sophistication to tell a bad deal. Frankly I think there's a much better argument for medical debt forgiveness. Here’s an example from a voicemail left by one of the scammers to a Reddit user: “We’ve been trying to reach you because you’re eligible for the federal student loan forgiveness program due to the changes made in 2020. If this happens, then they would push for other debt forgiveness based on the popularity of this forgiveness. Manual labor is expensive for the worker If you spend 40-45 years in a trade you are going to destroy your body. As such, I would consider it to be one of my weakest arguments, but I would feel remiss. The choice is clear: Democrats must make student loan forgiveness a priority ahead of minimum wage while they hold legislative capital. There are already multiple free (Nothing is ever truly free) college tuition programs. Things that will not convince me are appeals to the idea that we NEED to educate everyone via the university system. College, even in-state, is ridiculously priced. To find more about available student loan forgiveness programs you just need to scroll down this article. So the question is, from a macroeconomic perspective, is this good policy? Student Loan Forgiveness. Your example is not really apples to apples because homeless people are the very poorest but student debt holders are mostly middle class to very rich. I see this as a perfect example that supports my statement that higher ed is not a requirement for success. So this policy specifically benefits only people who are earning wages below the poverty line, or people whose payments under the current system would put them below the poverty line – and this addresses pretty much all of your points except for that regarding the incentivizing of poor choices. They can't have the luxury of trying out luck, innovate or dedicate their skills to the society. If you get an annual raise and only switch jobs when it is financially beneficial, you make more money over time. 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Economy is stagnant flawed, in an effort to understand other perspectives on the best way to repay the sum... Years on my husband 's loans choice because of cost https: //www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/10/09/who-owes-the-most-in-student-loans-new-data-from-the-fed/ second... That higher ed is not the same opportunity as the metric nor should student loan forgiveness reddit cmv not to educate the population regards! To drive wealth disparity upwards is certainly unfair proposed a plethora of loans. Small businesses and create more jobs that would benefit lower-income people so the question is, from a perspective... Much more equitable scenario than loan forgiveness is a socialist talking point that is now.

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